A letter from Nicolas Joly on 'natural wine means nothing'

 Back in May The Drinks Buisness interviewed Nicolas Joly where they quoted him as saying, "The term natural wine is nothing more than a drawer in which to put all the winemakers who didn’t make enough effort to convert to organics and biodynamics.”

This struck me as a case of jaundiced tabloid journalism as a chunk of the Renaissance consider themselves natural winemakers, and  who strive to reduce or eliminate sulfur and also work biodynamically.

Something was fishy.

So I got around to ask Nicolas to clarify. I publish the email below. He once again raises the important issue (almost dirty little secret) that the prevalent use of petrochemical is not the same as using elemental sulfur. And of course, he brings up a very important issue: if you farm using a chemical model, you can't really claim to be 'natural,' and the importance to recognize a charter of 'natural' philosophy.

Hello Again Alice, 

I think Drink Business misunderstood my comment which I thought was very clear .

Vin Nature means nothing in itself  as any one using chemicals can mention is wine comes from nature itself.

So behind that name (which definitely needs a charter of quality)  lies both.

Some people who are organic or biodynamie,  who do not want to be controled and some people who cannot, or do not wish to move to  organic or Bd use a name which will extend their market.

What I mentioned not clearly enough ( altough I thought it was clear ) is that the people who want to have a flag and stay behind this name, must by all means underline the charter of quality which is behind that flag .

Life inhabitate nature; so  Plants and animals comes from nature event the one saturated with chemicals! Wines comes from nature even the ones full of technologies.

Genetic comes from the change of a natural sequency of DNA so it is also link to nature and can pretend to bear that name.

So, for me that name, if it is chosen as a brand, needs a precise definition to be a reliable flag, otherwise it is meaningless. This is especially  important at a time where there's a rush to catch the organic or BD market to give a precise definition of what it means for a group.

This is what I told to Isabelle Legeron who is indeed serious when she makes a Selection of wine growers. But a transparency toward the consumer is a necessity otherwise it is " tout et n'importe quoi!"

Also on sulphur this  is never treated more in depth : .

Most wine for being exported needs an antioxydant .

First option a very tight filtration ( 1/3 of a micron ) which I think are very significantly disturbing and diminishing the wines even if it has a capacity to partly rebuild itself ; like agressing a painting and having it restored.  I cannot use it .

The other option is  to use an Antioxydant. There are  3 types :

1-Sorbate of potassium legal and dangerous in my mind ( it can be used on a wine where it is writen free of sulfur !!!) There is a project to forbid it in Europe .

2-Acide Ascorbic ( vitamine C ) I really dont feel puting this in my wine

3-Sulfur 

Important question; which sulphur?

1-sulphur as a derivative from the oil industry

 2- -mineral sulphut from mines ( a long time ago from volcano )

3-- volcanic sulphur,  a "recent " sulphur and therefore more active as basalt is a young earth,  more  active than old earth this is why it used sometime as a fertilizer.

Then how to use it ?

1- gas in a container ( it is issued from the oil industry under that form)

2--liquid solution ( it is also made with the sulphur from the oil industry

3-- from a burning sulfur as it was done in the past but is difficult to use as you need a racking to have it "taken in by the wine "

We will have in the coming 2 months a system done by P Gourdon where we burn sulfur in a small container and use a small hose to get it in the wine even if there is no racking. We will  use epurated mineral sulphur or may be a volcanic one.

 Presenting sulfur as a danger is a joke. There is a family of plant producing sulphur including garlic , onion , mustard etc ...the question is (not whether to use sulfur or not) but which sulphur to use. 

 Keep going Alice,

Nicolas

 

Comments

[Domenico]

I am very glad he cleared the air, so to speak, about sulfur. Bravo!

[Nick Gorevic]

Who are these drinks business people? This is not the first time they've engaged in shoddy, sensationalist, horrible journalism. That piece they did on Doug Wright was a total hack job.

[Nick Gorevic]

Oops I meant Doug Wregg.

[Alicefeiring]

I was wondering what you meant! Yes, the piece on Doug was disgraceful. They tend to take the Inquirer approach.

[LCFwino]

Nice post. Thoughtful email.

[Brigitte Armenier]

All organisms only mature by virtue of integrating the domain of social laws. And it seems that time has now come for this movement to clearly define its understanding of the word "natural": either a jungle for infantile emotions and desires, or a field of controlled instincts. The "Enoteca Bulzoni affair" is in that sense quite revelatory.

[penguinoid]

The one problem I can see with having a more strict definition for natural wine is who gets to decide on that definition... I've seen some overly strict personal definitions on other sites. Some disallow use of sulfur completely. Others disallow any use of oak barrels. Both can be misused, but disallowing them completely seems an overreaction - as Joly says here with regards to sulfur.

[Alicefeiring]

I still hate to see an international set of rules taken for a philosophy, because as I've said before, define and destroy--we will see exactly the farce organics have become. There is a general accepted rule, nothing added, nothing taken away, minimal amounts of S02, none during actual winemaking, organic or better viticulture. An ingredient (and processing note) would be a boon. L'affaire d' Bulzoni,'--which large, venerable house was really behind that one?

[Brigitte Armenier]

Alice, philosophy is one thing, love and hate another, not to speak of the economic sphere where the vigneron meets the consumer. In defining here three spheres, did I destroy them?
Was Biodynamics destroyed by the Demeter rules? Would you call the Demeter certification process a farce?
Whatever reasons can be linked to the "Enoteca Bulzoni affair," it shows that the word "natural" isn't defined, thus protected. Refusing to develop one's own capacity for inner authority and identity calls for the authoritarian outer intervention.

[Alicefeiring]

Unfortunately, as time goes by the Demeter rules will indeed become more of a farce as Biodynamic wine becomes a selling point. And this will happen to natural. Who will be defining? I think wine merchants should forgo the world natural, naturel, natura and just use very low manipulation and no additives and call it a day.

[Brigitte Armenier]

Alice, how can you present subjective opinions as "indeed" facts to come? Again, was Biodynamics so far destroyed by the Demeter rules? Do you truly think that what the Demeter certification requires is considered as no more than a "farce" from the vignerons?
"Who will be defining?" Well, who defined the Demeter rules?
Are the vignerons from the "natural" movement children or parents of the word? Will they use it with endless undefined claims? Or will they come to the inner maturity able to name, limit, define, give directions and protect?

[Alicefeiring]

100ppm for sulfur allowed by Demeter is way too high, yet some of their members are saying this is not enough to make a good wine. With more industrial people making 'biodynamic' wine they are already putting pressure to dumb down the rules. Look what happened with the EU's organic wine? That's kind of rubbish. Plenty of complaints in Europe about no adequate vineyard checks to see what kind of treatments are being used in the vineyard. And anyway, as you've said to me, there is no Biodynamic wine, just Biodynamic viticulture, or am I misremembering?

Does anything stay pure? As things grow in popularity don't they, (indeed) get watered down? Is this not simply the way of the world? And who is going to declare themselves 'leaders' of the natural wine movement? There are people who belong to the AVN and Vin Nature. They have a code. Is that not enough?

I don't have the answers. But I do have plenty of questions.

[Brigitte Armenier]

Yes, perfection is never achieved. Yes, there is no Biodynamic wine, only Biodynamic viticulture. But Alice, if adding a question mark to a statement makes it a question, then:
how pure is "pure"? Will a true maturity lead to senility, or to wisdom? Is in any way Demeter ruled by leaders? Is the AVN code the official regulation?